如是我闻:9月23日温家宝接受CNN访谈

以下内容来自9月23日美国《新闻周刊》国际版(Newsweek International)编辑Fareed Zakaria(感谢hanwei的提醒)对温家宝总理的采访,英文原文见CNN网站,中文译文来自译言网站(原译者文中有多处“权力”和“权利”的使用错误,我对应英文的power和right作了些更改)。

萨:我可以问您这样一个问题吗?一些美国和欧洲人特别是人权观察者说,中国在过去的几年里抑制人权;他们希望奥运会可以引领中国的开放,但是结果镇压却更严重了。对此您如何回应?

温:通过承办奥运会,中国实际上已经变得更加开放。任何不存偏见的人都将——哦,现在应该说是已经看到了这一点。在中国,自由言论和媒体自由报道是得到了承诺的。中国政府重视并保护人权。我们把这些吸收进了宪法,并在现实中认真贯彻执行。我想对于任何一个政府来说,最重要的就是保证它的人民能够享有宪法所赋予他们的全部权力权利。

这些权力权利包括生存权,自主权,和幸福生活的权利

我们不认为我们在人权问题上毫无问题。在某些地方和某些地区,这样的问题的确存在,我们的确有这样或那样的问题。但是我们一直在努力改进,我们想要我们国家的人权状况获得长足的进步。

Zakaria: May I ask you — some Americans and Europeans, particularly human rights observers, say that China has cracked down on human rights over the last few years, that they had been hoping that the Olympics would lead to an opening of China, but that it has, there has been more repression. How would you respond to that?

Wen Jiabao: By hosting the Olympic Games, China has actually become more open. Anyone without biases will see — have seen that. In the freedom of speech and the freedom in news media coverage are guaranteed in China. The Chinese government attaches importance to, and protects, human rights. We have incorporated these lines into the Chinese constitution, and we also implement the stipulation in real earnest. I think for any government, what is most important, is to ensure that its people enjoy each and every right given to them by the constitution.

Including their right to survival, freedom and to pursue their happiness.

We don’t think that we are impeccable in terms of human rights. It is true that in some places and in some areas, we do have problems of this kind or that kind. Nonetheless, we are continuing to make efforts to make improvements, and we want to further improve human rights in our country.

萨:当我在中国的时候,在旅馆里,在电脑中键入“天安门广场”时遇到了防火墙,有些人把它称为“中国的网上长城”(Great Firewall of China)。您认为一个连自由的在互联网上搜索信息都做不到的社会可以称得上是一个进步的社会吗?

温:中国有超过2亿的互联网用户,而互联网自由被很多人所认可,甚至有些认可来自西方。但是,为了维护国家安全,中国,和世界上的很多国家一样,也有某种限制。这是为了安全,为了大局的稳定和绝大多数人的自由。

我还可以告诉你,在中国的互联网上,你也可以找到一些对政府持批判观点的网站。

正是通过阅读来自网上的这些批评意见,我们得以确定问题的所在,改进我们的工作。

我不认为一个体系或政府会害怕批评意见或观点。只有通过这些批评观点,我们才能进一步的改进我们的工作,取得更长足的进步。

我经常上网浏览了解形势。

萨:您最喜欢上什么网站?

温:我上过很多网站。

Zakaria: When I go to China and I’m in a hotel and I type in the words Tiananmen Square in my computer, I get a firewall, what some people call the Great Firewall of China. Can you be an advanced society if you don’t have freedom of information to find out information on the Internet?

Wen Jiabao: China now has over 200 million Internet users, and the freedom of Internet in China is recognized by many, even from the west. Nonetheless, to uphold state security, China, like many countries in the world, has also imposed some proper restrictions. That is for the safety, that is for the overall safety of the country and for the freedom of the majority of the people.

I can also tell you on the Internet in China, you can have access to a lot of postings that are quite critical about the government.

It is exactly through reading these critical opinions on the Internet that we try to locate problems and further improve our work.

I don’t think a system or a government should fear critical opinions or views. Only by heeding those critical views would it be possible for us to further improve our work and make further progress.

I frequently browse the Internet to learn about a situation.

Zakaria: What are your favorite sites?

Wen Jiabao: I’ve browsed a lot of Internet Web sites.

萨:很冒昧的问您一个很多人关心的问题。这里有一张摄于1989年的您的相片。从1989年事件的处理中您获得了怎样的教训?

温:我相信,在经济改革的同时,也同样需要政治改革,因为我们的发展是世界范围内普遍的,我们的改革同样也该是普遍的。

我想你问题的核心其实是中国的民主。我相信当讨论中国的民主发展时,我们一般在三个领域讨论这项进程:

第一,我们需要改善选举体系,使得政府的权利权力真正属于人民,为人民服务。

第二,我们需要改善法制体系,依法治国,建立法制国家,我们需要独立公正的法制体系。

第三,政府应该接受群众监督,这将号召我们,号召我们增加政府内部事务的透明度,特别要接受新闻媒体和其他团体的监督。

另一个有关中国民主的重要方面在于,我们需要考虑中国国情,我们需要引进一种适应中国特点的体系,并且,是渐进式的引入这种体系。

Zakaria: I will take advantage of your kindness and ask you a question that many people around the world wonder about. There is a very famous photograph of you at Tiananmen square in 1989. What lesson did you take from your experiences in dealing with that problem in 1989?

Wen Jiabao: I believe that while moving ahead with economic reforms, we also need to advance political reforms, as our development is comprehensive in nature, our reform should also be comprehensive.

I think the core of your question is about the development of democracy in China. I believe when it comes to the development of democracy in China, we talk about progress to be made in three areas:

No. 1: We need to gradually improve the democratic election system so that state power will truly belong to the people and state power will be used to serve the people

No. 2: We need to improve the legal system, run the country according to law, and establish the country under the rule of law and we need to view an independent and just judicial system.

No. 3: Government should be subject to oversight by the people and that will ask us, call on us to increase transparency in government affairs and particularly it is also necessary for government to accept oversight by the news media and other parties.

There is also another important aspect that when it comes to development of democracy in China, we need to take into account China’s national conditions, and we need to introduce a system that suits China’s special features, and we need to introduce a gradual approach.

萨:人们说您在研究日本的民主体系,因为在日本同样是一党执政,但是民主依然存在。你期望在中国引入这样的民主吗?

温:我想世界上很多种民主,最重要的一点是民主的实质。

民主的实质是指,最终于民主而言,它是否可以代表民众的真正声音和切实利益。这一点才是最重要的。

我理解中的社会主义是一种民主的体系。没有民主,就不是社会主义。

并且,这种意义下的民主首先应该保证人民民主选举,监察和作出决策的权利。

这样一种民主可以在强调自由和平等的环境中,使得人民得到全面的发展,

并且,这样的民主应该建立在健全的法制体系之下。否则,就会发生混乱。这就是我们要依法治国,保证法律面前人人平等的原因。

Zakaria: People say you’re studying the Japanese system because there’s democracy but there’s only one party that seems to win the elections. Is that the kind of model you see for China?

Wen Jiabao: I think there are multiple forms of democracy in the world. What is important is the substance of democracy.

Which means that at the end of the day, what is important about democracy is that whether such form of democracy can really represent the calling and interest of the people.

Socialism as I understand it is a system of democracy. Without democracy, there is no socialism.

And such a democracy first and foremost should serve to ensure people’s right to democratic elections, oversight and decision making.

Such a democracy should also help people to fully develop themselves in an all-around way in an environment featuring freedom and equality.

And such a democracy should be based on a full-fledged legal system. Otherwise, there would be chaos. That’s why we need to run the country according to law and ensure that everyone is equal under the law.

读后感:
1.我们不仅应该听其言,而且要观其行。
2.对CNN可以说的话,在中国媒体的报道中要砍掉2/3;你可以“自由地”anti-CNN,但你却没有了解总理对CNN和美国人说的话的权利。“宁与外人,不与家奴”?
3.不论是政治上、道德上或者智力上,这种对中国老百姓的不信任,都是一种歧视与侮辱。“中国人民的感情受到了伤害。”



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Comments 7

  1. NP 说 (2008-10-07, 05:48):

    你的三点读后感不错。

    直接跟贴回复

  2. hanwei 说 (2008-10-07, 08:27):

    Fareed Zakareer应该是美国《新闻周刊》国际版的编辑,这期新闻周刊的封面也是温总,截取了4页对话,我也同意“听其言,观其行”,可是,我甚至都看不出来那些“政治观察员”解读的“言外之意”……

    直接跟贴回复

  3. Zouzou 说 (2008-10-07, 14:41):

    不论是政治上、道德上或者智力上,这种对中国老百姓的不信任,都是一种歧视与侮辱。“中国人民的感情受到了伤害。”
    ———-

    这一点不太明白
    “这种”是哪种?CNN/外媒的报道方式,还是温的回答方式?

    直接跟贴回复

    maomy 说 (2008-10-07, 19:06 ):

    @Zouzou, 都不是

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  4. 邹屁屁 说 (2008-10-07, 19:33):

    那是什么嗫?
    猫老师,我能加你MSN么?

    直接跟贴回复

  5. 奴家人 说 (2008-10-08, 18:30):

    “中国人民的感情受到了伤害。”
    ——
    南方周末的吴澧最近以此题目写了一篇文章,不妨看看。:)

    直接跟贴回复

  6. diana 说 (2010-04-22, 20:14):

    政府的改革不该是只挂在嘴上的装裱,而更该是尽快的切实可行,而这么多年像民生、改革类的问题如今依旧是社会的热题他没有随着某种“倾轧”和转移被隐没,反倒是水涨船高,根本问题就在于政府制定的制度根本没有质的转变,所谓的民主、选举不过是将管理人民的政权最终落到“预料的的到”的少数人的手中,最终还是专制或专政。古往今来的皇权专政发展到如今不过是变成了“共产党专政”,能否改变能否改良已不在我们老百姓的期盼当中,但是有一点,这种政治制度,如果当政的人是一个真的切实为百姓着想的人那么,这个社会的民主民生民权还会一点一点的有所起色,反之不过也是沦为附庸。统一与民主矛盾吗?为什么贫富差距、如今大学生毕业问题等问题越来越重?这是“发展”所带来的必然。只是在这一时期这种矛盾发展成熟所以全部暴露出来。当初的六四事件的震慑力与影响力,不亚于人类历史上任何一次学潮或风波,这件事其实就已经深刻地揭示出政府和制度所隐藏的弊端。然而它却被压的很深,八零后几人知?九零后几人知?但反过来说,“雪藏”就真的能做到密不透风吗?!不可能。相反的,这种方式只会引发更多的见解。人民应当爱国,政府应当爱民,专政可以领导一切,但它绝对领导不了人的意识与看法。或许现在愤青们的见解与提议的作用太微不足道,但不久,矛盾总会随着客观的发展必然发展到一定程度,不知那时,老百姓心目中的民权、民生与民主,将会何去何从。

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  7. diana 说 (2010-04-22, 20:32):

    好的东西,你不去说不去宣扬,做到之后自然会有人赞许自然会被接纳。但是还没做到或者做得还不够,就被当成夸张宣扬宣传的资料,往脑袋里去灌输这种思想,显然违背了事物发展的客观规律。老百姓的苦只有自己知道,山高皇帝远,很多人很多不平事都还无人问津,政府人员漠不关心,镜头前的笑脸相迎镜头后的判若两人,这些问题这些反抗的声音靠镇压靠沉默靠敷衍,只会让人心更凉,没有根本性的解决只会让矛盾在时间的长河中继续发展。“上面”总是很努力的让我们通过媒体看到他们想让我们看到的样子,然而,我们就算闭着眼睛都知道生活其实始终没有改变。一个人的生活命运能与社会、国家政策制度分的开吗?现如今的“高层”不就是一种社会主义制度下的“垄断”阶级吗,越来越大的贫富差距是社会不公的最严重问题,农民贫民的生活依旧大部分贫苦或者拮据,他们一辈子的花销一辈子的积蓄甚至都赶不上所有富人们的一件晚礼服。而有意思的现象是,很多人好像觉醒之后开始慈善开始捐赠,然而我们所看到的,却仍然是依旧如初。

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